Q&A with the extraordinary

Written By: Michael D. McClellan |

Borta bra men hemma bäst.

Sofia Mattsson is the living embodiment of this uniquely Swedish proverb, the Stockholm-born, Los Angeles-based actor thriving in a year of chaos and confusion, amping up the buzz on her Ava Carrington line of high quality handbags at a time when her soap, General Hospital, found itself shuttered due to the coronavirus pandemic. That Mattsson didn’t miss a beat is hardly surprising to those who know her best; equal parts fearless and optimistic, the talented Swede has no regrets making the jump to Hollywood, but not a day goes by that she doesn’t think about her homeland, from the eclectic Stockholm Fashion District in Nacka strand, to the old film projectors and vintage clothing in Hornstull Marknad, to the cozy vibe of the family’s country home. Mattsson especially cherishes the memories made on those long summer vacations.

Sofia Mattsson as Sasha Gilmore
Photo Courtesy ABC

“I miss those days the most,” Mattsson says. “We always have so much fun just being together as a family. Our country home is the perfect place to tune everything else out and reconnect with those who mean the most.”

Yes, away is good. But home is best.

Today, Mattson is back to work. She plays Sasha Gilmore on the highly-rated ABC soap, which resumed filming in August following a four-month shutdown. General Hospital has adapted to the new normal, going so far as to hire a COVID-19 director who patrols the set to ensure that proper protocols are followed.

“Everyone wants to work, but doing the right thing and staying safe is the top priority,” she says. “It’s definitely a balancing act.”

While Sasha has been spiraling downwards since her fake affair with Detective Harrison Chase (Josh Swickard) and subsequent breakup with Michael Corinthos (Chad Duell), Mattsson’s world has been far less dramatic. Yes, 2020 has been a year unlike any other, with political tensions in the US at a boiling point and a global pandemic that has recalibrated, well, everything. And yes, there’s a good chance that COVID-19 will continue to dominate the headlines well into 2021. Mattson, for her part, has kept her foot on the gas. In October, 2019, the model-turned-actor launched Ava Carrington with her sister, actress Helena Mattson.

Sofia and Helena Mattsson

“So much hard work has gone into this venture,” Mattson says. “It has been a dream of ours for a long time. Our goal is to design high-quality handbags that are also animal-friendly and eco-conscious. We’re very proud of our first collection of vegan bags, and I couldn’t imagine doing this with anyone other than Helena. It has been a blast!”

The closeness between the Mattsson sisters has been a constant from the jump. Born nearly seven years apart, Helena studied acting at the highly selective Södra Latin upper secondary school in Södermalm. Sofia grew up watching everything her sister performed in, becoming her biggest fan long before Helena splashed down in Hollywood, where she has appeared in everything from Desperate Housewives to American Horror Story to Iron Man 2. Sibling rivalry? Professional jealousy? Think again.

“We are each other’s most vocal advocate. There’s no jealousy, only support. I’m lucky to have a sister like that.”

Sofia’s decision to act – and ultimately carve out her own identity in Hollywood – may have been inspired by Helena’s trailblazing ways, but having a sister in the biz didn’t guarantee success. Sure, it helped to have someone based in LA with established connections. Doors open and meetings happen when you know someone, but that’s true in every profession. It also didn’t hurt that Mattson is stunning to look at, her inner-beauty radiating outward, her hotness in balance with her overall vibe – unpretentious rather than overt, sophisticated yet down-to-earth, all of it coming at you like a breath of fresh Scandinavian air. But there’s more to Sofia Mattsson than family connections and sex appeal. She’s a grinder, a perfectionist, and a workhorse all rolled into one insanely intelligent package. That she makes it look so easy is part of the charm.

Sofia Mattsson

“I enjoy working, learning, growing,” Mattsson says. “I don’t think actors are ever finished products.”

Still, Mattsson has come a long way. She arrived in the US hellbent on acting, but the Swedish accent stuck with her from home, limiting her to niche roles in the early going – Russians, Germans, Eastern Europeans mostly. Today, the accent is undetectable. Mattsson is fully Americanized, shucking off the layers of her homeland the way you might step in from the cold and remove a jacket, scarf, and gloves. She might as well be a transplant from Des Moines or Fort Wayne. Except Sweden is what made Sofia Mattsson the person she is today.

“I miss my home country every day, and for so many reasons – family and friends, obviously. I also had a lot of things going on in Sweden, but I was like, ‘No, I need to pursue acting!’ And I’m so happy I did.”

En skamfull hund blir sällan fet.

Growing up in Stockholm, Sofia Mattsson was hardly a wallflower. She started out in dance, transitioned into modeling and singing as she got a little older, and later joined a band, playing in some local pubs around town. Whether recording an album or traveling to Poland to record a music video, Mattson’s willingness to take chances afforded her even more opportunities in the spotlight.

Sofia Mattson, it turns out, has rarely turned down an opportunity to feed her creative side.

Bashful dogs rarely get fat.

“Growing up, I was constantly pushing myself, and still do,” she says. “When I got into modeling, I traveled to Germany by myself at a young age. When I moved to the US, I got a manager and an agent and jumped into acting with both feet. When the opportunity to launch Ava Carrington presented itself, I couldn’t wait to get started. There’s no substitute for doing.”

Stockholm, Sweden
Photo Courtesy Ava Carrington

The fearlessness that Mattsson brings to the table has served her well in the States. She worked steadily as a model for brands like Benefit, Mary Kay, Target, Ed Hardy, and Volkswagen, while building out her acting resumé with roles in independent and TV films such as Becoming Bond and My Husband’s Secret Wife. Then, in 2018, she landed the role of Sasha Gilmore on General Hospital.

“I had auditioned for General Hospital once before, but I didn’t make it past that point. Looking back now, I realize that I wasn’t ready. But when I auditioned for the role of Sasha, I knew that I could handle the part. I was confident, and I felt like I could convince them that I was the right person for the role. Still, it was a very nerve-wracking process!”

Sasha Gilmore is, in many ways, a flawed and riveting character. Addicted to drugs and her life spiraling out of control, Gilmore’s ultimate fate on GH is the subject of rampant speculation. While Mattsson can’t reveal anything about Sasha’s long-term status on the soap, it’s clear that she has her own future carefully mapped out.

“I got to act with my sister in My Husband’s Secret Wife,” she says, “and that was such a great experience. Hollywood is slowly coming back to life, which means more auditions and more opportunities to act. And Ava Carrington is keeping me very busy. It’s a challenging time because of the pandemic, but it’s also an exciting time in many ways as well.”

Gud ger varje fågel en mask, men han kastar den inte i boet.

It’s only fitting that the Stockholm Collection is the first in Ava Carrington’s line of high-quality vegan handbags. Designed with confident, fashion forward women on-the-go in mind, the Stockholm Collection honors the rich fashion heritage of Mattson’s hometown. Getting this venture off the ground was a Herculean task, with Sofia and Helena putting in long hours on top of their already busy acting schedules. Neither of them complained. Ava Carrington had long been their dream. Once the opportunity presented itself, they knew that they had to work for it.

“We understood that there was a market for luxury handbags made using ethical practices. Starting a company from the ground up was challenging in so many ways, but the result has been extremely rewarding. We felt the time was right. It hasn’t been easy, but nothing worth it ever is.”

Sofia Mattsson
Photo Courtesy Ava Carrington

Indeed.

God gives every bird a worm, but he does not throw it into the nest.

Sofia Mattsson’s acting career, like Ava Carrington, is on a upward trajectory, the future bright and filled with promise. Eventually, the pandemic will run its course and the world will fully reopen for business, Hollywood included. Mattson will be ready. She’s too damned talented, too damned smart, too damned fearless to let COVID-19 dictate the terms of what comes next.

The future belongs to Sofia Mattsson.

That’s a good thing for the rest of us.

You’re from Stockholm, Sweden. What was your childhood like?

Stockholm is an amazing city. I grew up with two parents and two older sisters, and it was a really lovely time in my life. Everything in Stockholm is close, so you’re in proximity of everything you want to do. You can walk or bike everywhere. For me, I could walk to school, to my friend’s house, to dance practice, and to my grandmother’s house just down the street. Living in Los Angeles is very different, because you can hardly walk at all when you want to go somewhere.


What do you miss the most?

I really miss the seasons, especially those amazing summers when we would go to our summer house on the lake and the days seemed to last forever. Those were great times, because the whole family would gather there for weeks straight. There was nowhere else to go once we got there, so we would swim, play games, and just hang out. When you live in a city, it’s very hard to keep the family gathered together, because there are so many other things to do and it’s so easy to go out. So, whenever we could be at the summer house, that was always a chance for us to come together and reconnect as a family. I have all of these great memories of our vacations there, and also great memories of our home in Stockholm. It’s a really beautiful, amazing city.

Sofia Mattsson
Photo Courtesy Sofia Mattsson

Stockholm gets a bad rap for its winter months. How much of that is true?

Even the winters in Stockholm are beautiful. There are a lot of cozy, candlelit coffee shops that spring up, so it can be a winter wonderland. There’s a lot of snow during the wintertime, but the city doesn’t shut down. Outsiders might think that you’re going to be buried in snow up to your neck, and the city’s attractions close up during the winter months, but that’s not true. There are quaint pubs and cafes, and lots of shopping. It really is the best of both worlds.


Was dance your first form of artistic expression?

Yes. I did a lot of dancing as a child. I was at dance practice almost every night, and we had really fun shows at the end of each season. I really looked forward to those shows because I love to perform. I also started signing around this same time, and as I got a little older I was part of a band. That was a really cool experience for me because we played at some of the local bars around the city. We actually recorded a music video at one point, and that was something I enjoyed, probably because it was an opportunity to step in front of a camera! I later got into acting while I was still living in Sweden, but early on it was mostly dancing and singing.

Helena and Sofia Mattsson
Photo Courtesy Sofia Mattsson

Your sister, Helena, is also an actor. What was the dynamic between the two of you growing up?

Helena has always been an inspiration to me, both as a person and as an actor. One of the things that I really admire about her is that she has always been very caring and kind. She always puts family first. When we were growing up in Sweden, just getting to watch her perform in plays was one of my favorite things. And since Helena went to a theater school, she was in plays all of the time. I used to go watch them all, every performance, night by night, and she always stood out. She was really such a star. She’s always amazed me with her talent. She could play such a wide range of roles, even at a young age, and she was able to stand out playing so many different characters. She just always crushed it.


Did Helena play a part in your decision to act?

She made it look like such a challenge, which made it seem very appealing. It became something that I wanted to do as well. So yeah, she definitely played a role in me deciding to act. She was easily my biggest inspiration for it. My desire to act became greater after she moved to Los Angeles, because I was able to join her on location for filming here. I especially remember visiting when she was filming Desperate Housewives. I thought it was cool to come to the set and walk around, and get the full behind-the-scenes experience. Seeing it up close sealed the deal. In that moment, I couldn’t think of a more fun job. I still can’t.

Södra Latin

Helena studied acting at Södra Latin in Södermalm. How did you land in Hollywood?

I went to a normal school in Sweden, one that was not focused on theater, but I took a lot of theater classes at night. I did plays and smaller roles, and I did as much acting as possible. As for my journey from Sweden to the United States, it obviously started by visiting Helena here in Los Angeles. I immediately fell in love with the city, the people, and the acting scene. And after getting some work in Sweden, I was fortunate enough to actually move here and pursue acting as a career.

I had studied hard and immersed myself in acting classes in Sweden, which was something that I continued to do after moving to L.A. I also worked very hard on my accent, which is really important for getting roles. If you can’t speak like an American it really limits your auditions and means fewer opportunities. From there I was lucky enough to find a manager, and then I found an agent to represent me. I started off in a lot of commercials, worked my way up to bigger roles in films and pilots, and then eventually landed my role on General Hospital.


Speaking of General Hospital, what’s it like living in the fictional town of Port Charles?

I love it. I really, really, really love it. There’s nothing that I don’t enjoy about playing Sasha Gilmore. Everyone in the cast is so humble and so incredibly talented. Until I actually got there, I never truly understood how hard it was to be on a soap. You have so much material that you have to do in such a short amount of time, and it’s usually done in one take, so it can be extremely challenging. Somehow everybody pulls it off, and there aren’t any egos to worry about. Even the people who have been on the show for 20+ years are very down to earth. The other thing that struck me right away is that everyone is so helpful. Everyone wants everyone else to do well.

Sasha Gilmore (Sofia Mattsson) and Michael Corinthos (Chad Duell)
ABC’s General Hospital

How do you learn your lines in such a short amount of time?

In the beginning it was really tough. I was like, “How in the world am I going to do this?” But you learn. You just have to read it until you know it. Sometimes it takes hours. You just have to stay up until you memorize your lines. There are tricks that can help you. I’ve actually recorded my lines on my smartphone, and also recorded the other person’s lines, so that I could listen to them over and over. Whatever technique you choose, you can’t get away from the fact that there is a lot of studying involved. You’re working a lot on your own before you actually get to the set. And like I said, in the beginning it was hard work and I really struggled to get through it, but since then it has gotten easier and easier. I think it’s like a brain muscle or something that you are working out. Nowadays, I can look at it at the script and it clicks almost immediately. I think it helps that I’m playing the same character.


You’ve also done films. Please compare the pace.

With a movie, you get the script sometimes two, three, or four weeks ahead of filming, if not longer, so you have a lot of time to prep. You can work on your role, and really dig in deep. And then, when you are actually filming it, you have time to prepare before each scene. You also have the opportunity to do several takes of the scene, so you can relax a little bit more. Depending on the schedule, you can maybe play around more and test a few different things with the director and see what works.

On General Hospital the prep time is a lot shorter. You get one take, maybe two if someone really messes up. The ball just keeps rolling on a soap. You don’t have that time to ease into anything, so it can be intimidating. On the other hand, you play the same character for so long that you almost become the character, so the prep time isn’t as necessary as it is for a movie, where you are approaching a brand-new role, and where you have to get to know the character and build it up.


You acted with your sister in the 2018 Lifetime film My Husband’s Secret Wife. What did you enjoy most about this project, and did you ever think that you’d share the screen with her?

I hadn’t given serious thought to what it might be like to act opposite Helena, partly because I’d been so focused on auditioning for my own roles and trying to find work as an actor. It just so happened that the right opportunity came along at the right time. That’s when I actually allowed myself to think it might be possible. And then it finally happened; I was cast as Avery’s sister, Cat, at which point I allowed myself to get really excited about being onset with my sister. I was like, “Wow! We’re going to be in the film together – of course we should act together!” [Laughs.] It was such an amazing experience, and I loved filming that movie for so many reasons. Obviously, I got to act with Helena, which was our first time on-screen together. It just felt very natural, as you might expect, because our characters were sisters. It wasn’t too far of a stretch from real life. It probably would’ve felt a little more weird if we were complete strangers, or worse, enemies, but that wasn’t the case.

So yes, I loved everything about that experience. Helena and I got to stay in this super-cute house in Kentucky, where we were filming. Our parents were actually visiting us in Los Angeles at the time. Instead of canceling their trip when they found out that we had booked this movie, they came to Kentucky and stayed with us. It felt like old times in a way, almost like we were at our summer house back in Sweden. It was great having the family together and enjoying each other’s company. It was a memorable experience.


How did you become a model?

I happened organically. My sisters were modeling, so I got a glimpse into that world through them. I was 16 when I started modeling. I started out modeling in Sweden, but I traveled to Germany by myself at one point. I had to navigate the city using maps, and I had to make sure that I was on time for my appointments and modeling jobs. It was such a great learning experience to do that by myself at such a young age. It made me very independent very quickly. I’m not modeling a lot now, because I’m pretty tied to General Hospital, scheduling-wise. I do miss it.

Sofia Mattsson
Photo Courtesy Sofia Mattsson

Speaking of fashion, the people of Sweden have a reputation for having a classic sense of style.

I think you are absolutely correct. Stockholm is very well-known for having very stylish people. I don’t exactly know why or where it comes from, but the people who live there definitely have great taste when it comes to fashion. In fact, I think that Swedes in general have an inherent sense of style. Having grown up there, I think it’s undeniable. There’s a history of quality and clean design, and an eye for vintage clothing that is both versatile and timeless. It must be in our DNA [laughs].


You and Helena started Ava Carrington, which is focused on luxury vegan fashion. I’ve read that the inspiration behind the name came from your grandmother.

My grandmother has been such a huge part of my life. Growing up, she was almost like a second mom,  because she lived just down the street and she was over at our place all of the time. She has always been super-sophisticated and into fashion. She loves America, and she traveled here a lot when she was younger. She used to always tell us stories about her time in the States, and to us it seemed like this magical, faraway land. This was before any of us had been over here, of course, and years before we knew that we were going to move to Los Angeles. My grandmother also used to tells us stories about all of these interesting people that she’d meet on her travels, and she often mentioned one woman in particular – a sophisticated, classy, fashion-forward woman named Ava Carrington. So when it came time to pick a name for our business, Helena and I were in complete agreement. We wanted to name it after this woman whose fashion sense had made such an impression on our grandmother.

Sofia and Helena Mattsson
Photo Courtesy Ava Carrington

What was the inspiration behind getting in the fashion business?

Both my sister and I have always had entrepreneurial spirits – moving so far away from home to pursue acting is obviously an entrepreneurial endeavor – so I think we were destined to get into something like this at some point. Our close relationship, the trust we have in each other, and the shared vision that we have also took away a lot of the fear and uncertainty.

The inspiration to do vegan handbags just came from a feeling that there is a big gap between well-designed, high quality products and ethical practices. Most luxury handbags are made with leather, which is not ethical to me, because of the animal suffering. Meanwhile, many vegan options currently on the market are either low-quality or not unique and well-crafted designs. We wanted to create a handbag that not only incorporated both beautiful designs and high quality materials, but that were also ethically made and required no animal sacrifice. That’s the philosophy behind Ava Carrington.


The Stockholm Collection is beautiful. How did you find such quality materials?

It involved a lot of hard work. There is so much bad stuff out there, so you have to kind of dig your way through everything. The research was painstaking. Basically, we sourced all over the world to get samples from as many different places as possible. We literally tested hundreds of fabrics before we found the one we feature in the Stockholm Collection. It very much has the same structure as leather, and it looks and feels the same…but it’s also environmentally friendly, is super durable, and is also more water and scratch resistant than leather. So it has all of these amazing qualities that leather doesn’t, and we are just super excited to have found it.

Helena and Sofia Mattsson

What was it like getting Ava Carrington off the ground?

As I had mentioned, Helena and I have always had an entrepreneurial spirit. We’d talked about starting a business like this many times in the past, so I think it’s in our blood. We picked fashion because we have that drive to create. We also knew that pursuing our dream wouldn’t be easy, and that starting a company is a very big deal. It requires a lot of work, and you have to wait until you get the right idea. We had been spitballing ideas for years before we found something that we felt was so needed, which was vegan fashion. It presented us with a mission that we were very excited to go on, and that’s when we really buckled down and decided to do all of the work.


And I assume it’s a lot of hard work.

It feels like we’ve been through a self-paced business school experience, because we’ve had to learn so much from scratch. We had to brainstorm the idea, finalize the sketches for our first collection, and seek out all of the materials used in the manufacturing. We also had to incorporate a company, pull together all of the documents that we needed, file for patents, create a website, launch a marketing campaign, and do all of the advertisements. There is so much that goes into it, and since we’re doing this for the first time there has been a steep learning curve. But, I’m so grateful for the experience. I’ve learned so much, and I’m loving everything about it. It has been a really fun challenge.

Sofia Mattsson
Photo Courtesy Ava Carrington

Who are some of your favorite fashion designers?

I love Stella McCartney. I think it’s always amazing when a brand also has a mission that’s considerate to either the environment, animals, or both. Stella McCartney is a brand that does those things. I also love the clothing brand Reformation. It’s based in Los Angeles, and they do a lot of very environmentally friendly clothing. So yeah, I think those would be my top two right now.


Let’s talk wellness.  What does your diet and exercise regimen look like?

Well, things obviously look very different now than what it did a few months ago. Before COVID, there were so many more workout options to choose between. I’m a social person so I like group workouts, so, pre-COVID, Orangetheory was my go-to workout destination. I loved it because you basically rotate between treadmills, rowers, and the floor, where you do weight exercises. And I love the comradery and team spirit that you have in that kind of environment. When you have a group around you, and you’re  doing it together, then you can pump each other up. I also used to do dance classes, because I love those, too, but now that things have changed I’ve had to adjust my workout routine.

Sofia Mattsson
Photo Courtesy Sofia Mattsson

How so?

I just got a Peloton bike for my home, which has been extremely helpful. I was little worried at first that I wouldn’t be able to motivate myself, especially with not having that team spirit and other people around, but so far it’s been really fun. It’s a great workout, and it kicks my butt.


Living in Southern California means plenty of outdoor exercise options. Do you play tennis?

I used to. I did a pilot a few years ago, where I play a Russian tennis player who is ranked No. 3 in the world. In preparation for that role I had to play a lot of tennis, so I took some lessons from professional tennis players. We shot the pilot, which was for ABC Family, but it didn’t get picked up. I actually never saw the episode, but the experience was absolutely amazing. So yeah, I love tennis. It’s such a great sport.


What is your hydration go-to?

I honestly love ice cold water with lemon in it. Not necessarily because it’s healthier than other drinks, but I just because I love the taste. In general, I would always prefer to eat my calories rather than drinking them – I would much rather have a piece of chocolate cake and a Coke [laughs]. I do drink a lot of water. It’s so important to hydrate, and water is best thing for you in that regard. I also drink a green juice at least once a day, one that’s packed with spinach, celery, and all kinds of greens. The benefits that it has are amazing.


What does the Sofia Mattson diet look like?

I’m pretty basic. I don’t do anything special. Just a lot of whole grains, a lot of veggies, and a lot of fruits. I eat a lot of soups and salads. I try to get a lot of greens in there. I must admit I’m not a great cook yet, but there are so many great restaurants in Los Angeles that have both vegan and vegetarian options, so and I do eat out a lot.

Sofia Mattsson
Photo Courtesy Sofia Mattsson

Your TV and film credits include series such as Campus Security, NCIS, Jurassic City, and Becoming Bond. For the uninitiated, how competitive is Hollywood?

Oh, it’s definitely much more competitive than you can imagine. There are a lot of talented people coming here from all over, which makes it tough, but the digital world that we live in makes it even tougher. That’s because nowadays you can produce self-tapes so easily, and you don’t even have to be in Los Angeles to submit them. So instead of competing against actors who are physically in the L.A. area, you are competing against pretty much the whole world. Today, anyone from London or New York or anywhere can send in a self-tape.

You also need a thick skin, and you need to get used to hearing the word “no.” Trust me, before you land a job you’re going to get at least 100 rejections, usually more. It’s just part of the game. It’s very important not to get discouraged by it. That’s easier said than done, because it can be so frustrating at times. In other professions, if you do good work, then there’s a good chance you are going to move up the ladder, or you’re going to be rewarded somehow. When it comes to acting, you could be absolutely amazing in something that you do, and then you could end up not working for weeks or months at a time. But I’m an optimist. I do think that if you work really hard, eventually it will work out. It could just take longer for some than it does for others. You’ve gotta hang in there.


How does Sofia Mattsson handle rejection?

Rejection is always hard because you really have to prepare for a role. And if you go all-in and really do the work, there’s a good chance that you’re going to get emotionally attached. Sometimes you really fall in love with a certain role or a specific project, almost to the point where you can start imagining yourself in it – how amazing it would be to get to live that role, or how much fun it would be to do it – and then it could be over in one second. Maybe the audition doesn’t go well, or someone else shines brighter, or you’re just not what they’re looking for in that particular role. That moment when you realize you’re out of the running can be absolutely heartbreaking. It can really put you down. You definitely need to find a balance between your acting career and having a good life on the outside. That helps you keep things in perspective, so that acting doesn’t mean everything to you. And don’t’ get me wrong…to succeed, acting has to mean a lot to you…but it can’t be everything. You’ve got to have something else to go home and do when things don’t work out. Having a good group of friends around you also helps.

Sofia Mattsson
Photo Courtesy Sofia Mattsson

How did you land an agent?

I got lucky, because my sister’s manager wanted to represent me when we got here. We vibed from the moment we met. She was really excited about managing my career, and I felt a good level of trust with her. So yes, I got really lucky. Through her, I got set up with my agent. She set up all of these meetings with various agents, and I interviewed with them until I found one that we kind of vibed the best with. I get it. Sometimes it’s hard for actors to find good representation here. So, for other aspiring actors, I would just say that that there are a lot of agents in Los Angeles. Reach out to as many as possible, and pick one that you feel has your best interests at heart.


Did your Swedish accent limit you in any way?

I really had to work on my accent. I had to take classes. In the beginning, I had to play a lot of Swedish roles, or Russian roles, or German roles. If you’re European and  you have an accent, then you kind of fall under an umbrella that encompasses any European country. I did a lot of that in the beginning. Then I worked a lot on my accent to be able to play Americans as well.

Sofia Mattsson
Photo Courtesy Sofia Mattsson

Final Question: If you had one piece of advice for other aspiring actors, what would that be?

To work really hard on your craft and make sure that you enjoy the process. Have fun while you’re living your dream!

Written By: Michael D. McClellan |

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Spend any time at all with Robert Fergusson, whether that’s listening to one of his sermons or chatting with him about his new book, and you instantly realize that he’s the real deal; someone who genuinely cares and who effortlessly connects, the kind of person who draws you in and takes you along for the ride.

English by birth, Australian by choice and European by taste, Fergusson has been a part of the Hillsong mega-church for more than 30 years, during which time he has seen incredible growth on a global scale. With the COVID pandemic gripping every corner of the world, 2020 has accelerated the use of virtual-meeting technology in ways both captivating and unexpected. Hillsong College, like all other colleges and universities, has had to adapt to the ‘new normal,’ and Fergusson’s lectures are just as engaging online as they are in person. Great stories transcend platforms. Great storytellers transcend time. Robert Fergusson has both bases covered, and as written a book that can help you achieve the same.

“Wherever you find yourself in life, I believe this book is going to encourage, instruct, and inform you about how you can fulfill your life’s purpose,” says Fergusson. “I hope the lessons I’ve learned along the way can help you on your journey to rediscover a love for learning and teaching, the importance of impartation, and the eternal truths found in the greatest story ever told.”

Are You Getting This? is available online now at Barnes & Noble, Amazon, SHOUT! Publishing, and other booksellers.

Let’s talk about the book. I love the title.

The title is interesting, because I am a teacher. When I get up to speak, I am so passionate about people getting an idea that I constantly say, “Are you getting this?” And, many years ago a friend said, “If you ever write a book on communication, you should call it, ‘Are You Getting This?’ So, that’s exactly what I’ve done. It’s become my catchphrase. I’m very passionate about communication, and I think that all of us in some form or another are involved in public speaking. My own journey is that I was a terrible public speaker when I was a child. So I’ve had to learn, and I wanted to pass on some of those ideas that have help me along the way. That was my motivation for writing this book.


Fear of speaking in public is almost universal. It can be a traumatic experience.

It can certainly be terrifying, but I’m living proof that it doesn’t have to be. I was brought up in England with no passion or desire to be a teacher or a communicator. When I was in school I was told that I was stupid, lazy, and disappointing. You must understand, I went to the sort of school that didn’t hold back on its school report. In fact, I still have a school report saying that this boy cannot express himself. So, every time that my parents received my report, it was a disappointment, especially in the area of public speaking. Well, I returned to that school after many years and learned that they had put together a centenary magazine, in which my geography essay from 1966 had been published as the worst piece of writing in 100 years of the school’s history [laughs]. Thankfully, they didn’t put my name at the bottom, just my initials!

Robert Fergusson

How did storytelling help you overcome your fear?

The idea of being involved in public speaking was totally alien to me. I was later studying zoology at university when I became a believer in Christ, and it became evident that I was going to end up in some sort of ministry position. Clearly, I had to learn to speak, and storytelling was one of the ways that I overcame some of my nerves. Think about it: When you’re talking about stories – I would often write stories about animals – there is almost always a natural connection with the audience. Because there’s such an emotional connection, stories became my normal way of communicating. It’s really developed from there. I’ve now been a speaker for 46 years, the last 30 of those in Australia, and stories have become more and more central to the way that I communicate.


You call this book your redemptive story.

I love redemptive stories that start with the hero or a heroine who is flawed, or who is maybe going in the wrong direction, or who is going through some process, challenge, or test. Then there’s a turning point or a redemptive moment where they fulfill their goal, and, in a sense, it all ends happily ever after. I know that is a bit of a cliché, but there is something about that arc that is very satisfying. The theme of the book is very much a redemptive story.


There are some lighter moments in the book as well.

In storytelling, they say the difference between a comedy and a tragedy is how the hero or heroine engages with the dark power in the middle of the story. I think that is what all of us have to deal with, regardless of the situation. We have to engage with the challenges that will either turn us into a tragedy or a comedy. I prefer comedies.


When did you start writing the book?

This has been a long journey. People often say, “How long does it take to write a sermon?” When I’m being pedantic, I may say seven hours, but in reality it has taken over 60 years. The book is been a long journey. I’ve been teaching on preaching and communication for the last 30 years in our college here, so there has always been the seed of a book. This one has probably developed over a 10-year period. One goal I had was that I didn’t want to put out a little book on my own, I really wanted the book to serve as one of the church’s resources. Because I wanted the church to be the backer and publisher of the book, in a sense I was happy to wait until what I felt was the right time.

Robert Fergusson

Is there a particular story from the book that you wouldn’t mind sharing?

There’s a chapter in this book called Fire Overcomes Fear. The basic principle is that, if you have a passion that is greater than your fear, then you can overcome that fear. I use the illustration that, if you were a mother and you were terrified of snakes, but you had to step over a snake to get to your child, you would do that without hesitation. Why? Because your love for your child is greater than your fear of snakes.

So, when I’m teaching, I try to find people’s fire. There’s a great verse in the Bible that has been a real help to me. In Jeremiah, 20:9, it reads, “If I say, ‘I will not mention his word or speak anymore in his name,’ his word is in my heart like a fire and I cannot contain it.” I try to encourage people. I look for their anger, I look for their passion. If you can get that, then your background doesn’t matter. Your story doesn’t matter. Your lack of talent doesn’t matter. If you can tap into that, then you can be an effective communicator.


You’ve been with Hillsong Church for about 30 years, so you’ve seen its explosive growth into a mega-church. How did you start out?

It’s an interesting story. Brian Houston, who is the senior pastor of at Hillsong Church, visited England back in the 1980s, and was speaking at the church in which I was a minister. At the end of a group meeting I went up to him and said, “Is anyone looking after you for lunch?” It turns out that he didn’t have plans, so I invited him to join me for lunch. I had absolutely no agenda or expectations. I just simply invited a visiting speaker to lunch. I often say that a simple decision, or an act of hospitality, can completely and utterly change your destiny. This was certainly the case here, because a number of years later his father invited me to Australia. At the time, Hillsong Church was actually two centers, or as you might say, two local churches – one located in the city, and one farther west. Then, in 1999, the two came together and became Hillsong Church. The rest is history. Those two centers became campuses, and, suddenly, there was extraordinary growth and influence. It has been a wild ride. People often come to us from different parts of the world and say, “What’s the secret?” We just say, “It’s through the grace of God,” because there is no secret. For some reason, God decided to use a very simple church in Australia to impact millions of people. It is an extraordinary thing.


Hillsong Church is a church without borders. How has Hillsong managed through the coronavirus pandemic?

You can either see threats as dangers or opportunities. Our pastor, Brian Houston, saw this global pandemic as an opportunity to go online and reach more people. Of course this involved huge challenges – we operate a college and many of our students had to go home, and almost everything that the college offered had to transition to being fully online. Suddenly, people from all over the world are saying, “Well, I don’t have to move to Australia to go to Hillsong College, I can attend it from anywhere.”

There are so many examples. I was talking to our pastor in Sweden recently, and because of the lockdown he has had to make some adjustments to the services offered there. Now they are only allowed to meet in small groups. So, instead of having two or three big services, he has started hosting micro-services all across Sweden. Last weekend he had 67 micro-services, many of which were in towns that he had no contact with before. Technology has given us greater reach, greater influence, and greater opportunity.

Robert Fergusson

Do you consider yourself a born teacher?

That’s a really interesting question. I’ve always loved teaching. My children used to say, “If you ask dad to tell you the time, he would tell you how to make the watch.” There’s something about the desire to pass on information that is deep inside me. I think my mother gave me that. She was immensely curious. People say, “Who is the great heroine in life?” I always say that it’s my mother, in large part because she gave me the gift of curiosity. To be honest, I’ve never seen myself as a great preacher, or a great teacher, or even a great storyteller. I think the fact that I struggled in school has actually helped me to become a better coach. I know what it’s like to not get something – hence, the name of the book, Are You Getting This?  I understand the steps that you need to take to get from one place to another. I know how to get the best out of people.


What is your philosophy when it comes to writing?

They say that poetry is the best words in the best order. If you look at someone like Winston Churchill, who was a great orator, you could see that he chose the exact words that would fit that exact situation. When he became Prime Minister during World War II, he could have said, “I’m really committed to working hard. I’m going to do my very best. I’m very committed to the cause.” Instead he said, “I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat.” As soon as you hear it, you realize that those are the right words in the right order. Nothing wasted. That is my philosophy.


Final Question: If you had one piece of advice for others what would that be?

Well, it’s almost impossible to give one piece of advice apart from the grace of God, which is foundational. But I say to people, keep doing the right thing. I think the right thing is often the wise thing, the good thing, the loving thing. If you keep doing the right thing, then sooner or later you’re going to be given that opportunity. I might not be the best preacher in the world, but here I am, at Hillsong Church. I just kept turning up, and kept doing the right thing.

Written By:  Michael D. McClellan |

His arrival in Boston coincided with that of a certain shot-blocking, game-altering, paradigm-shifting center named Bill Russell, his considerable basketball talent overshadowed by the dazzling ball handling of fellow Holy Cross alum Bob Cousy and the dead-eye marksmanship of the gifted Bill Sharman.  There would soon be other marquee players added to the mix, future Hall of Famers such as John Havlicek and the Jones Boys, KC and Sam, further obscuring the contributions of one Thomas William Heinsohn, and yet his very arrival helped cement a roster on the rise send the Boston Celtics on an unparalleled, decade-long championship feast.

Despite starting his Celtics career in Russell’s considerable shadow, Heinsohn was the trigger man for that untouchable run of eleven titles in thirteen seasons; with Russell in Melbourne, missing the first 24 games of 1956-57 regular season to compete in the Olympic Games, Heinsohn bounded onto the NBA stage like a playful pup, chasing down rebounds and firing those patented low-trajectory jumpers en route to the league’s Rookie of the Year Award.  The capstone of that dream season came in Game 7 of the 1957 NBA Finals.  With Cousy and Sharman both ice cold from the field, Heinsohn scored 37 points and grabbed 23 rebounds in Boston’s thrilling 125-123 double-overtime win over Bob Pettit and the St. Louis Hawks.  It would prove to be the defining moment for Boston Celtic basketball, and in many ways the foundation of Celtic Pride:  That win not only established Boston as a perennial NBA power, but it also stamped the Celtics as clutch performers obsessed with the bottom line, an unselfish team far greater than the sum of its individual parts.

Tommy Heinsohn

Born on August 26th, 1934, in Jersey City, Heinsohn flourished at St. Michael’s High School, earning all-county and all-state honors as a junior, and then earning national All-America honors as a senior.  The four-year letter winner averaged an eye-popping 28 PPG during that 1951-52 season, drawing national attention and prompting an avalanche of scholarship offers.  He ultimately decided on Holy Cross, then one of the preeminent basketball programs in the country, following in the collegiate footsteps of another hoops legend, Bob Cousy.

At Holy Cross, Heinsohn went onto become a three-year letter-winner, as well as a three-time All-Conference performer.  As a junior he averaged 23.3. PPG, and as a senior he set a school scoring record by averaging 27.4 PPG.  The numbers could be downright spectacular – on March 1, 1956, Heinsohn scored a school-record 51 points against Boston College – or they could simply be amazing, such as the eighteen consecutive free throws made in a game against Georgetown University earlier that same season.  Not surprisingly, Heinsohn finished his senior season by being honored as a consensus All-American, but perhaps even more impressive was his making the dean’s list (four times in two years) and being named Holy Cross’ top student-athlete.

A territorial pick by Red Auerbach and the Celtics in the 1956 NBA Draft, Heinsohn averaged 16 PPG during his rookie season.  Together, Heinsohn and Russell proved to be the missing ingredients to a championship mix, defeating the Hawks in that dramatic 1957 NBA Finals and staking claim as professional basketball’s team of the future.

Heinsohn’s scoring averaging increased during the 1957-58 season, to 17.8 PPG, but an ankle injury to Bill Russell in the ’58 Finals allowed the Hawks to claim the title.  Nicknamed “Tommy Gun” and “Ack-Ack” by his teammates, Heinsohn’s offensive punch helped the Celtics win a second title a year later.


The 1959-60 NBA season brought another championship to Boston.  Heinsohn’s scoring average increased for the fourth consecutive year, to 21.7 PPG, this to go along with a career-high 10.6 RPG.  Battling Wilt Chamberlain and the Philadelphia Warriors in the Eastern Division Finals, Heinsohn was there when the team needed him most, tipping in a shot at the buzzer to win Game 6 and send the Celtics back to the NBA Finals.  For Heinsohn, that play remains one of his biggest thrills.

“Wilt didn’t like me to begin with,” Heinsohn recalls with a smile.  “He was pretty easy-going, but for some reason I seemed to get under his skin.  I scored twenty-two points in that game, including that tap-in at the buzzer.  It was a great feeling to score like that.”

Heinsohn was named to his second All-Star Game the following season, and the Celtics were once again world champions.  It was a delicious pattern that would repeat for the next four seasons.  He would retire following the 1964-65 campaign, his mind willing but his ailing knees unable to carry him further as a professional basketball player.  Still, there were no regrets; his nine years in the league had produced eight championships and six All-Star selections.

Auerbach would retire a year following the 1965-66 season, and, in the ultimate show of respect, he approached Heinsohn about taking his place on the bench.  Heinsohn didn’t have to think long about the offer – he pretty much refused on the spot.

“I was flattered, but I knew that Russell still had a few years left,” he says.  “I couldn’t accept the job because, aside from Red, there was only one other person who could coach and motivate Bill Russell – and that was Bill Russell.”

Auerbach agreed, and Russell was named player-coach.  He would win two more championships over the next three seasons and then bow out a winner.  The final tally for the Russell Dynasty would be eleven titles in thirteen years, including eight in a row.


Russell would retire following that 1969 title run, and Auerbach once again approached Heinsohn about the head coaching job.  This time Heinsohn agreed.  With Auerbach providing the talent – he grabbed Kansas point guard Jo Jo White in the 1969 NBA Draft, and a year later selected Florida State’s Dave Cowens – the rebuilding Celtics enjoyed a speedy resurgence; after finishing 34-48 during Heinsohn’s rookie campaign as head coach, the team rebounded with a 44-38 record the following season.  A 56-26 record ended a two-year playoff drought, and then the Celtics rolled to a 68-14 record during the 1972-73 regular season.  The 68 wins were a team record.  Heinsohn was named the NBA Coach of the Year.

The next season would prove magical, as Heinsohn’s Celtics dropped to 56-26 but advanced to the 1974 NBA Finals.  Considered an underdog to Lew Alcindor (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) and the Milwaukee Bucks, the undersized Celtics played a frenetic brand of basketball to forge a 3-2 series lead.  In Boston for what would a the penultimate Game 6, Jabbar’s buzzer-beating skyhook forced Game 7 back in Milwaukee.  The media proclaimed the new-look Celtics dead, that they had squandered their best chance to claim the title.  Privately, Heinsohn had a different take on things.  He saw an old Oscar Robertson, his legs weary from a long season and a difficult playoff push, and he knew that his players were fresh and ready to atone for that Game 6 loss.  And atone they did:  Cowens scored 28 points and grabbed 14 rebounds, outplaying the bigger Jabbar.  Jo Jo White and Don Chaney forced Robertson to work hard on both ends of the court.  Paul Silas was a beast on the glass.  And when it was over, the Celtics were once again world champions – the first of the post-Russell era.

“We were able to dictate the style of play,” Heinsohn says quickly.  “We forced them to play our way, and we wore them down over those seven games.”

The Celtics were unable to repeat the next season, but they were able to reclaim the title one year later, following the 1973-74 regular season. It was Boston’s second title in three seasons.  That series will forever be remembered for Game 5 in the Boston Garden, a three-overtime thriller against the Phoenix Suns that the league now bills as ‘The Greatest Game Ever Played.’  As a coach, Heinsohn compiled a 416-240 record over eight full seasons, won five consecutive Eastern Division titles, and two world championships.  He would resign midway through the 1977-78 regular season, but his passion for the Boston Celtics kept him in the game as a television broadcaster and earned him the reputation as the team’s ultimate homer.

“The Boston Celtics are a special organization, one of the best in all of sports,” he says with a smile.  “I’m proud to be a part of the Celtic family.”

Please tell me a little about your childhood, and some of the things that led you to the basketball court.

I grew up during the Depression and World War II.  In 1944, my family moved to Union City, New Jersey, and that’s when I first started playing basketball.  All sports, for that matter.  A guy named Perry Del Purgatorio took an interest in me in the schoolyard – he played at the University of Villanova with Paul Arizin.  He was between his sophomore and junior years, and he would come home and practice at night, and one night I just happened to be there.  He asked me to shag the balls, and we became friends.  And I did that every night, and he taught me how to play basketball.  That’s how I started playing basketball, and by the time I got to the eighth grade I was pretty good.  I got a scholarship to high school, which allowed me to play basketball at a little Catholic school.  So that’s how I started playing.  I tried out for the football team, but never made it.  I played a little bit of baseball.  But basketball was my game.


You played your high school ball at St. Michael’s High School in Union City.

I had a terrific high school coach.  His name was Pat Finnegan.  He arrived at St. Michael’s just prior to my sophomore year.  He was a World War II veteran and a Fordham grad.  His brother John was a marine and Seton Hall graduate.  Both played college basketball for their schools.  The two of them would come around on Saturdays and would scrimmage with all kinds of people, so by the time I was a sophomore in high school I was playing against very, very good basketball players.


How good was your high school team?

By the time we got to be seniors we had a very good team.  I played with two guys who ended up going to college on basketball scholarships.  We won the Metropolitan Catholic Championship – all of the Catholic schools in and around the New York metropolitan area competed.  Teams from New York and New Jersey.


You were a two-time All-State basketball player at St. Michael’s.  Did that help open doors to playing against better competition?

I was selected to play in an All-Star game down in Murray, Kentucky, for the Converse Rubber Company.  You’d go down there for a week.  You’d have two-a-days and scrimmages, and then you would play the game.  The coaches spent that entire week evaluating the players, and that’s how I ended up being selected to the high school All-America team.  I was also on a team that went up to Eastern States Catholic Invitation Tournament in Newport, Rhode Island, which at that time was a big deal.  We played well and ended up in the final game, but we lost that one.  It was a great experience that helped me transition to the college level.  In fact, I had over 350 offers after making the All-America team, so it opened up a lot of doors.


I hear you also played some semi-pro ball.

I played practically every night, from my sophomore year on.  I played under another name for the Jewish Y.  I played PIL basketball for a semi-pro team, which was really the best experience I could have gotten.  The league was more talented, and more competitive than my high school league at the time, which in itself was pretty good at the time.  I played against some pros, and I played against some All-Americans.  A lot of college players.  In one tournament at the end of my sophomore year, against this kind of competition, I was selected as the MVP of the tournament., which was quite a thing for a kid that age.

Tommy Heinsohn

Why did you choose to play college ball at Holy Cross?

I selected Holy Cross because I wanted to go to a Jesuit school, and because it had the best basketball program at the time.  Holy Cross was number one in New England, and I knew several of the players.  Togo Palazzi, who also played for the Celtics and who was two years ahead of me, was a Union City guy.  I had played against him in high school, and he was a terrific player.  Another guy by the name of Earl Markey – he was a senior when I was a freshman in high school, and he had played in the same league that I had played in.  I knew his brother, and I played semi-pro basketball with his brother.  So I knew some of the people, I liked the school, and I liked the coach.  So I went to Holy Cross.


Freshman weren’t eligible for varsity ball in those days.

I played on the freshman team.  We were an undefeated freshman team, and we used to battle the varsity to a standstill in practice.


You ended up having a pretty decent college career at Holy Cross, finishing as the school’s all-time leading scorer and a consensus first-team All-American.

My sophomore year we won the Sugar Bowl, and we won the NIT, which was the premiere tournament at the time.  We were ranked number one or two in the country, depending upon which ranking you wanted to use.  But we were a terrific team.  There were three sophomores starting on the team that won the NIT.  The next two years were successful and challenging at the same time.  We lost Togo Palazzi to graduation.  He was drafted by Red Auerbach and played for the Celtics.  We also lost Ronnie Perry, our captain, so we really didn’t have the same team.  To make matters worse, my coach had a falling out with the school and left at the end of my junior ear.  My senior year brought a brand new coach and a new philosophy and everything else.  But I ended up making All-American both years.  I played against the Harlem Globetrotters, I played in All-Star games, and I was selected as a territorial pick by the Boston Celtics.

Tommy Heinsohn (24)

What was the territorial pick all about?

Back then, the territorial process was really the first round of the NBA Draft.  You had the exclusive rights to a player if you wanted him, regardless of where you finished in the standings.  It was based on a player’s proximity to the team, and it allowed teams to showcase players that were popular in that team’s market.  So the Celtics executed their territorial rights on me.


In 1956 you joined a Celtic team on the verge of a dynasty.  Did you know fellow Holy Cross alum and Celtics star, Bob Cousy?

Well, I had watched the Celtics play.  I really didn’t know Bob Cousy until I joined the Celtics, even though he lived in Worcester, where Holy Cross is located.  He was busy playing basketball for the Celtics and I was still in school at the time.  So I never really got to meet him.  But, as I said, I did get to see Cousy and the Celtics play.  They were an up-tempo team.


Tell me about your first year in a Celtics uniform.

That year changed everything for the Celtics.  Walter Brown and Red Auerbach made the deal to get Bill Russell, after St. Louis selected him with the third overall pick in the 1956 NBA Draft.  The Celtics also got KC Jones in the second round, and they used that territorial pick on me.  The Celtics got three Hall of Fame players in the same draft.

Russell went to the Olympics, so he didn’t join us until midyear.  In the meantime, I learned to play with Cousy.  That turned out to be the best way to adjust to NBA basketball.  And the reason we were so successful was because of the rebounding.  Prior to my being there, and Russell being there, they really had a terrific offense but no rebounding.  “Easy” Ed Macauley played underneath the basket for them – he was the key player that Boston packaged in order to get Russell from the Hawks – and he was too thin to really compete against the big guys inside.  He was 6’8”, but he didn’t weigh 200 pounds.  He was terrific scorer, though.  He just wasn’t a rebounder.  Russell and I provided that.  Plus, I was a scorer.  Russell came in around the middle of the season on.  We were eight games out of first place by the time Russell came back from the Olympics and started playing with us.

Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman, who were established pros at the time, were the most experienced players on that 1956-57 team.  Jack Nichols was a forward on that team.  Arnie Risen was the center until Bill Russell showed up.  There was Jim Loscutoff, who had been a rookie the year before.  Andy Phillip, who ended up being a Hall of Fame player, was a part of that team.  He was a great playmaker, and very steady.  So it added up to a pretty savvy basketball team, and as the younger group started to mesh.  KC Jones actually didn’t play that year, because he had to go into the service for two years.  We later added Sam Jones and Satch Sanders, and the Boston Celtics was well on its way to becoming a dynasty.

Tommy Heinsohn (left) celebrates the Celtics 1974 NBA Championship with John Havlicek (17)

After years of playoff disappointment, the Celtics finally broke through.

We played well in the postseason, and we made it to our first NBA Finals.  We beat St. Louis in double-overtime of Game 7, which I still consider to be the most thrilling game that I was ever involved in – and I’ve been involved in a lot of Finals series, broadcasting, coaching or playing.  To the best of my knowledge, there has never been another seventh game that has gone into double-overtime.


You scored 37 points and grabbed 23 rebounds in that Game 7 victory over the Hawks.

It was a championship game, winner-take-all.  I got up for the game, and Russell got up for the game, but Cousy and Sharman were so nervous that they never really performed at their best.  Russell had a super game, but I had a super game, too.  Frank Ramsey played very well.  So did Jim Loscutoff.  Cousy and Sharman were like 4-for-40 from the field, or something like that.  They really had a tough night scoring.  But they played great defense, and they got the ball to other people when they needed to.


What do you remember most abut that game?

I remember Russell fouling out.  I remember how intense the game was, and the excitement in the Boston Garden.  The two greatest plays that I ever saw in basketball happened in that game – one with Russell, who blocked a shot after going out-of-bounds and running the length of the court.  He came out of nowhere to block Jack Coleman’s shot for a layup.  It was breathtaking to watch.  And then, Alex Hannum throwing the ball the length of the court pass off the backboard and into the hands of Bob Pettit, to get a shot with two seconds left.  It was an eighteen footer, and it almost went in.  I had never seen anybody ever do anything like that before or after.  And now they’ve changed the rules, of course, so you don’t have to do that.  But he threw it the length of the court, it hit the right corner of the backboard, and it rebounded all the way out to Bob Pettit [laughs].  He got the ball, and he almost made it.

Tommy Heinsohn (center) sits on the bench with Bill Russell (left) and head coach Red Auerbach (right)

You were very close to team founder Walter Brown, but your friendship was tested in the days before the 1964 NBA All-Star Game.  Tell me about that.

I was the president of the NBA Players Association, and in 1964 the All-Star Game was going to be held in the Boston Garden.  A really difficult situation developed between the Player’s Association and the league with regards to playing conditions – there were no trainers at that time, no pension plans, and playing games on Saturday night and then traveling all night to try and play a game on television on Sunday were just some of the problems that we were trying to address.  Well, the owners wouldn’t talk to us when they promised that they were going to talk to us, and it all came to a head at the 1964 NBA All-Star Game.  I had told Walter Brown that I didn’t know what was going to happen, but unless something was done with regards to these issues, then something was going to transpire at the All-Star Game.  I let him know this about a month before the game was to be played.  The days passed, and the closer it got to playing the All-Star Game the more it looked as if the players were going to boycott.  You have to understand, back then the All-Star Game was the most important national exposure for the league.  It was vitally important to both the players and the owners, but especially for the owners because they were trying to grow professional basketball in a big way.  Well, minutes before game time, NBA President Walter Kennedy gave his personal guarantee that adoption of a pension plan would occur at the next owners meeting, that coming May.  And he was true to his word.  The owners approved a plan in which they would contribute 50% toward the purchase of a $2,000 endowment policy.  That’s how the NBA pension plan was started.


Did it effect your relationship with Walter Brown?

And after it all happened, Walter Brown called me the biggest heel in sports.  He said that if the league had a team in Hawaii he’d send me to the team in Hawaii.  He eventually calmed down, and by the end of the season we won the title.  At the team’s breakup dinner he stood up, and he said that I was the main reason why the Celtics had won the title that year.  Believe it or not, at the same time all of this was going on, I was in the insurance business and I was handling the insurance side of Walter Brown’s estate planning.  So I had a somewhat of a mixed relationship with Walter.  He was a terrific human being, and a man of his word.  Frank Ramsey used to send his contract signed completely blank, and he would have Walter fill in his figures.  I can remember negotiating my contract standing in the bathroom at the urinal, and before I zipped up we had a deal [laughs].


Red Auerbach often took the Celtics on preseason barnstorming tours throughout New England.  What was it like to ride in the car with Red?

I never rode in the car with Red Auerbach – you’d have to be crazy to ride in the car with Red Auerbach [laughs].  My funniest story?  I don’t know if anyone ever told you this one, but it revolved around Jim Loscutoff, who had had back surgery and was trying to make the ball club again.  Naturally, after back surgery Loscutoff was a little tentative.  Now, Red had been in the Navy, and had done some work helping guys recuperate from injuries in the service, and what have you.  Psychologically, he tried to get into Loscutoff’s head.  He wanted to make him forget about the back and just play basketball.  Anyway, he would have separate drills on these road trips up through New England.  We’d go to play in a high school gym, and we’d all go to take a nap in some motel, and in the afternoon he would take Loscutoff to the gym for a separate workout.  Loscutoff was my roommate, and he would come back to the motel and go, ‘I’m gonna get that little sucker, and I’m gonna kill him.’  And he kept saying this, you know, and finally I went to Red and said, ‘Red, what are you doing to Loscutoff?’  I said, ‘You better watch out, he wants to kill you.’  And Red said, ‘You and Ramsey, you two come and watch what I’m doing.  Just don’t let him know that you’re there.’  So we sneaked into the high school gym and hid way up in the stands behind some seats, and we watched Red put Loscutoff through his paces.  And he would throw the ball on the floor, and he would say, ‘Okay, doggie, go get it.’  Loscutoff was expected to dive on the floor and jump on the ball.  And then Red would throw these long passes so that Loscutoff had one step and then he would crash into the wall.  And after it was all over, I looked at Ramsey and I said, ‘If I were Red, I wouldn’t keep dong that to Loscutoff – he’s a little bit left of center anyway, and he’s just crazy enough to knock Red into next week.’  [Laughs].  But to give Red his due, he got Loscutoff’s head back into the game, and Loscutoff was an important part of the team for years to come.


Your relationship with Red Auerbach is clearly special.  How were the two of you able to get along so well?

Before I became the coach, I spent four years in the management end of the insurance business, in which I was very successful.  As I was going through the initial management course for the insurance company, all of a sudden I started to see how good Red really was as a manager of people.  How he drafted certain players, and why.  And how he made the acquisitions to get players in to help keep the team on top.  All of the motivations he used, and everything else.  And I thoroughly believed in the philosophy that we had about running and making the other team play twice as hard, and think twice as fast.  The other thing was, unbeknownst to a lot of people at the time, every time we signed a rookie and something was wrong, he’d ask me questions.  For example, he might say, ‘Tommy, what’s wrong with Mel Counts?  Why can’t he rebound, and why can’t he hold onto the ball?’  And I might say, ‘Well, he’s not catching the ball off the board.  He brings it down and it gets slapped out of his hands easily.’  And Red would respond, ‘Well, you work with him.’  So over the years I worked with a lot of players.  As a consequence, Red saw me dealing with a lot of players.  Larry Siegfried, for example.  Red was going to cut him, and I used to play one-on-one with Siegfried.  Nobody could beat me one-on-one until Siegfried showed up.  He would beat me every time we played.  So I said to Red, ‘Before you cut Siegfried, you should know that he’s the only guy on the team that can beat me one-on-one.’  Red looked at me curiously, and he said, ‘He does?  Well, we’re going to have practice at the Garden.  You play him one-on-one and let me watch.’  So, Red was way up in the stands where he couldn’t be seen.  And he watched – Siegfried never knew this – and so we played and he beat me again.  Red kept Siegfried.

After I had retired, he called me up that summer and said that he had a chance to get Don Nelson.  He said, ‘What do you think of Don Nelson?’  And I said, ‘Red, Don Nelson is slow as shit.  He cannot run.  But he and Joe Holup are the only two guys that I played against in the NBA that I couldn’t get around.  I don’t know how he does it, but he does it.  He’s also a terrific shooter, so if you’ve got a shot at him I think it’s well worth the effort.’  So that was my contribution to Don Nelson landing in Boston.  And I think Red saw something in me as a coach, and that’s why he approached me for the job.


Tell me about your friend and the radio voice of the Celtics, the late Johnny Most.

Johnny Most and I were really good friends.  I hung around Johnny from my rookie year on, because he was a very intelligent man, and he was a great storyteller.  I would ask him questions about everything.  He was in second World War, and I would meet all of his buddies.  He was a gunner on a B-24.  So, we’d go out somewhere and one of his buddies from that crew would meet up with us.  I’d go out to dinner with them, or breakfast or lunch, or whatever, so I got to know all of his old-time buddies.  Johnny had a tough time in the service.  He was in Italy, and he was there with the Tuskegee Airmen, and he was one of the planes that they used to protect.  So, he wrote about stuff like that.  And it made him ultra-sensitive.  He would tell stories about that period in his life.

He helped me after I started broadcasting the games in ’66.  So I roomed with Johnny Most on the road when I did the game.  We did twenty-five road games.  I would room with him, and he helped me learn how to broadcast.  After I became the coach of the Celtics, I started broadcasting at Sports Channel, and in the summer we used to have Johnny Most sound alike contests.  So I would emcee the sound alike contest all over New England – at the hotel, a bar, whatever.  And we had a lot of fun doing that.

Johnny Most was also a Pop Warner football coach, and the commissioner of a Pop Warner football league in his community.  And he helped get my son involved in football.  So, we were brought together in many different ways.  I was friendly with him as a player, I would pal around with him as a coach, and we hung out in between during my time as a broadcaster.  So I hung out with Johnny Most for well over twenty years.

He always had a slew of jokes – he’d sit down, and he’d just rattle off these jokes.  You’d go out with him after a game, and sit at a bar, and he’d start telling jokes and everybody would be laughing their tails off.  What else?  He’d been up in the Borscht Belt in New York, which is up in the Catskills.  He knew all of the comedians, and everything else.  So, Johnny was a special person and a good friend of mine.  And it was a shame that, ultimately, even when he knew what was going to happen he never stopped smoking.


Do you have a funny story from your time with Johnny Most?

My favorite story about Johnny Most?  If he took a liking to you, then he would try to promote you on the broadcast.  At that time my roommate was Lou Tsioropoulos, which was my rookie year.  So, he liked Louie.  Loscutoff got hurt and couldn’t play in the playoffs, and Louie had to fill in for him.  And his broadcast went something like this:  “I can’t believe the defensive job Lou Tsioropoulos is doing on Bob Pettit.  I mean, he’s in his jersey, he’s in his sneakers, there’s no place that Pettit goes that Lou Tsioropoulos isn’t right there with him.  Here we are in the middle of the second quarter and he’s only got….thirty-two points?”  I laugh about that to this day.


You scored 22 points in Game 6 of the 1960 Eastern Conference Finals, beating Wilt Chamberlain and the Philadelphia Warriors.

That was one of my more memorable games, because I tipped that shot in at the buzzer.  That’s the only time that anybody has ever shut up 11,000 Philadelphians all at once [laughs].  Convention Hall went deathly silent.


You were known to get under Wilt Chamberlain’s skin.

Wilt was a force to be reckoned with, and he took an immediate dislike to me during his rookie year in the league.  He ripped off my jersey during one game in which we had a little altercation.  We had a little play that we used to help us beat Philadelphia all the time, because Wilt got a little lazy at times.  They would shoot a free throw, and make it, and Russell would run down the floor.  Cousy would inbound the ball real fast, and Russell would outrun Wilt easily, and Russell would get a layup.  So we were getting three or four baskets a game off of that.  By the time we get to the series with the Sixers that year, Wilt has caught on.  So before the series starts, Red said, ‘The play with Wilt is not working anymore, so we’re going to change it a little bit.  We’re going to have somebody step in and block out the shooter once the ball goes through, go pick off Wilt Chamberlain, so Russell can get the step on him and beat him down the floor.’  So that sounded pretty good to me, because I was never the guy blocking out the shooter.  I was always on the line, rebounding.  So, for five games, I’ve gotta go and get in front of Wilt Chamberlain on every free throw.  Finally, he gets wise to what I’m doing.  And he says, ‘You do that one more time and I’m going to knock you on your ass.’  So, you know, you never back down.  I looked him in the eye and I said, ‘Bring your lunch.’  So, they made the free throw, and I went over there, blocked him…I set a pick on him…and sure enough he knocked me on my ass.  I went all the way out to half court.  Whereupon he comes running down the floor, winds up, and he’s punching me as I’m getting up to my knee.  And I’m looking at this fist coming at me, and all of a sudden Tom Gola walks in between us.  And he hits Gola off of the back of the head – and Wilt breaks his hand!

The next game is up in Boston.  The ball gets by Russell and Wilt turns to the basket.  I’m the guy coming over to help.  I try to punch the ball out of his hand.  Instead, I punch him on the broken hand.  He looks at me, and he’s going to kill me.  And I said to myself, ‘If I play chicken with this guy right now, he’s going to own me.’  So he got to the foul line, and he kept looking at me.  He was giving me a stare down.  I kept looking him right in the eye.  I put my hands on my hips and I just kept staring at him [laughs].  Finally, he said out loud to himself, ‘This guy’s crazy.’  And he took the free throws and I never had another moment of trouble with Wilt [laughs].  It was the ultimate stare-down at the O.K. Corral [laughs].

Tommy Heinsohn

Someone told me that you played a pretty good prank on Red Auerbach.

I call it my worst day.  I was in the insurance business, and I would read mail and the paper with breakfast.  I opened the paper and learned that I’d just lost a big, half-million dollar insurance case.  I went to my car and drove down to the radio station in Worcester to do my radio show, and when I came out afterwards I had a parking ticket on my windshield.  Then I hopped in the car to go to practice, and ended up getting a speeding ticket.  I end up late for practice because of the ticket, and I got fined by Red.  By this time I’m in a bad mood and I don’t have a particularly good practice.  I go downstairs to get dressed afterwards, and when I reach into my pocket I realize that somebody had stolen my wallet.  My credit cards are gone, and so is my draft card, which was pretty important in those days.  So I’m sitting there very despondent, and Red says, ‘What’s the matter?’  So I tell him about the worst day I’ve ever had, and he says, ‘You know, Tommy, when things aren’t going well, I always like to have a cigar.’  He reaches into his pocket and says, ‘On the way home, here, take this cigar and smoke it.  You’ll feel better.’  I said, ‘Red, I’m not a cigar smoker.’  He said, ‘Take it anyway and try it.’  So I’m driving home, and about halfway I say to myself, ‘What a nice gesture on Red’s part to give me the cigar and calm me down a little bit.’  So I unwrap the cigar and I put it in my mouth.  I get the cigarette lighter going, I take two puffs, and the damned thing explodes in my face [laughs].

The next day Red says to me, ‘Tommy, did you smoke the cigar?’  Well, I wasn’t going to let him know what happened.  I said, ‘No, you know that I don’t smoke cigars.  I had to go speak at a thing last night, and I gave it to the monsignor.’  Red said, ‘You gave it to the monsignor?’  And I said, ‘Yes I did.’  Well, he looked at me dumbfounded, but he didn’t say anything.

So, every couple of weeks I’d give him a cigar.  I’d say something like, ‘Red, I was just at this thing, and they gave me a couple of cigars.  Here.  You have them.’  And I’d buy the cigars.  I’d feed him the cigars like that, every couple of weeks.  The first few, he kept looking at them to see if they were loaded.  He’d inspect either end.  Finally, I’d given him so many cigars, that he stops looking to see if they’re loaded.  Now we’re going into the playoffs.  We had practice, and I give him this loaded cigar.  All of the newspaper guys are standing around, waiting to hear his pearls of wisdom.  He used to sit there, at the bench, and unwrap a cigar, light it up and talk to the press.  On this particular occasion he didn’t have a match.  I had a cigarette lighter, so I went over and I lit it for him.  And he took two puffs, right in front of the press, and it exploded right in his face [laughs].  Let me tell you – he literally chased me out of that place…up the stairs, on the court, everywhere [laughs].


Bill Russell and Sam Jones retired in 1969, and the Celtic Dynasty was officially at an end.  What was it like to take over the reins as head coach, and how were you able to temper the fan’s expectations regarding the new starting center, Hank Finkel?

Needless to say, Hank Finkel was no Bill Russell.  Here I am, I’m going to take over, and I’m going to try to win a championship without Russell, Mr. Defense, of the last thirteen years.  And without Sam Jones, one of the greatest offensive players in the history of the game.  I gotta do something with this team.  After Cousy retired, the Celtics didn’t run quite as much, and things slowed down toward the end of the dynasty because Russell had reached an advanced age.  I always believed that running was the way to win, so I tried to get this team to run a little bit.  Really, what the first year was all about, was an elongated tryout camp.  Trying to fit the pieces together.  Actually, if I’m not mistaken, we didn’t make the playoffs in either of my first two years coaching.  But if you look at the team’s record that second year, it was a good enough record to make the playoffs most any other year.  We had Finkel, we had Richie Johnson, and we had to devise a way to win.  It wasn’t easy.  I had to become a coach, have them listen to me, and establish my credentials as a person capable of doing the job.  It wasn’t easy, especially when you’re losing and the fans are used to winning championships.

We got through the first year, and then we got Cowens.  In the meantime, I had worked with Don Chaney that whole first season, bringing him along.  And Jo Jo White was the pick that first season.  So I worked with him.  The next year I established the style of play, and how to do it.  We started in training camp, and we really, really developed an up-tempo game without the likes of a Bob Cousy.  And I put together a way of running, so that everybody played a little bit like Bob Cousy.  Because I’d run up the floor so many times with him, and I saw how he reacted to the fast break situations.  So I devised tactics to do exactly the same thing with different personnel.  So we didn’t have to rely on one particular player to deliver the ball, like we did when Cousy was playing.  That allowed us to maintain the pace, and win with pace.  Because I believed that that’s how the Celtics, when I played, really won.  A lot of those games we paced the other team completely out of the game, we’d run so much.  But this team I had, with Cowens, was very small.  That’s how we had to win games, or not win at all.  It succeeded.  I put the offense in one year, and then I worked on augmenting it with a pressure defense.  The goal was to have a pressure offense and a pressure defense.  The pressure offense was to beat them up the floor, make them hustle back, and the pressure defense was to make them work the ball up the floor, and to force them into mistakes.  We utilized a lot of people.  We changed the morale of the team a little bit, because we used a lot of people, and we started to win.

BOSTON – 1956: Tom Heinsohn #15 of the Boston Celtics poses for a mock action portrait circa 1967 in Boston, Massachusetts. NOTE TO USER: User expressly acknowledges and agrees that, by downloading and/or using this Photograph, user is consenting to the terms and conditions of the Getty Images License Agreement. Mandatory Copyright Notice: Copyright 1956 NBAE (Photo by NBA Photo Library/NBAE via Getty Images)

The following season the Celtics drafted Dave Cowens.  How long did it take for you to realize he would be special?

I had never seen him play – Red was the guy that had seen him play.  So, when we got him, I had gone down and I’d seen a couple of other centers, and I didn’t like any of them.  Red kept telling me about Cowens, who he’d seen at Florida State, and so he said that he was going to draft him.  So I said, ‘Fine.’  I didn’t know what the heck he was capable of until I finally go to see him play.  And I immediately said, ‘Wow, this guy is a bundle of energy and ferocity.’  So, we used that on the fast break.  He really wasn’t a good offensive player at that time.  We spent a couple of years working with him on his offense.  And we also put in a system to bring him along, to where when we played the big centers like Wilt, Bob Lanier, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Willis Reed, and all of those guys – the big seven-footers – we really had a no-center offense.  We would pull Cowens out from under the basket, and we’d rotate people all over the place.  So in addition to becoming a rebounder, Cowens also became a playmaker.  He had the ball, and he would make Wilt come out, and it was a style that became very, very successful for us.  Cowens fit into it beautifully, and it was one of the main reasons we were able to win so many games.  We really played two different styles of basketball – against the big teams we ran, and then we’d use this offense if we had to slow down.  It forced the opponent’s big guys to come out of the middle and play defense on the outside, on the perimeter, which they didn’t know how to do, nor want to do.  Cowens gave us a terrific advantage.


What was it like for you to win your first NBA Championship as head coach of the Boston Celtics?

It ranks right up there with winning my first championship as a player.  It was something that I’ll never forget, and it was a great thrill just to be a part of it.  The year before, we had won a team-record 68 regular season games, but John Havlicek hurt his shoulder in the playoffs and we got into a 3-1 hole in the Eastern Conference Finals.  We tied that series up at 3-3, and then lost that seventh game.  So, even though we had a great year, we were left with a very empty feeling to win 68 games and then fall short of a championship.

We came back wiser, healthier, and more mature the next year.  We only won 56 games, but we had learned that winning in the playoffs is far more important – you have to win during the regular season, sure, but we wanted to peak at the right time.  And that’s what we did.  We battled Kareem and Oscar Robertson in that series, and neither team could maintain control of home court advantage.  In fact, we were up by a point in Game 6, and had a 3-2 series lead, and all we had to do was make one more stop to win the championship.  And then Kareem hits that big shot from the corner.  It was one of his patented skyhooks, and it sent the series back to Milwaukee for the seventh game.

We knew we were the better team, and going into that final game we wanted to prove it.  We also knew that our pace had taken a toll on Oscar.  He was at the end of his career, and all series long he had been forced to hustle on both sides of the ball.  He was tired.  So we turned up the pressure on him even more.  We picked him up earlier on defense.  We pushed the ball every chance we got.  And we were able to win that game decisively.  It was a great thrill, and one of the best basketball experiences that I’ve ever had.


Nineteen years removed from your incredible double-overtime performance against the St. Louis Hawks, your Boston Celtics took the court in Game 5 of the 1976 NBA Finals.  In your mind, what stands out most about that triple-overtime thriller?

Fainting in the locker room after it was all over [laughs].  I’d gotten dehydrated during that thing, so they’d brought me into the trainer’s room and I fainted.  Somebody asked me a question and I just keeled right over.  I ended up with a touch of high blood pressure, and they weren’t going to let me go out to Phoenix and let me coach the next game.  It wasn’t until the next day that they changed their minds.  They looked me over, and allowed me go out and coach.

That game was such a draining experience.  It was a terrific game.  We got up big, and then Paul Westphal starting making these whirling-dervish moves.  He was the only guy in the league that I’d ever seen go into the paint for a layup, and do a three-sixty at full speed, in the air, and make the shot.  And he made about four of those in the second half of that game.  And then, of course, Gar Heard hit that big shot.  The next game, the sixth game, was in Phoenix.  And whoever was able to bend over, tie their sneakers and walk out onto the floor was going to win that game [laughs].  That’s how debilitating that triple-overtime game was back in Boston.

Tommy Heinsohn

If your athletic career were a play, it would contain three acts:  Your sensational collegiate career at Holy Cross, your Hall of Fame career as a player for the Celtics, and your equally impressive job as head coach.  If you had to choose a signature Heinsohn moment from each of these acts, what would they be?

At Holy Cross, it was winning the NIT and being named MVP of the Sugar Bowl.  As a player, it would be the seventh game of that first championship in 1957.  As a coach, it would be wining my first championship against the Bucks in ’74.


Final Question:  If you could offer one piece of advice on life to others, what would that be?

I told my kids this – you don’t do things because people will like you.  Because I’ve found out playing basketball that forty percent of the people will hate you no matter what.  Forty percent of the people will love you no matter what.  And twenty percent of the people will actually be influenced by what you truly do.  So you’ve got to find something that you like to do, that you have fun doing, and then do it.

Written By: Michael D. McClellan |

As America began to try and come to terms with the surprising results of the presidential race of 2016, the subsequent rapid-fire speed of events and jam-packed news cycles meant that nobody would ever have the opportunity to truly and properly reflect on what exactly just happened — and how did it?

THE ACCIDENTAL PRESIDENT is British filmmaker/journalist James Fletcher’s quest for those answers. In it, he not only uncovers a detailed play-by-play from all angles on how it all went down, but also the state of America that led to the results, what the electorate was really motivated by, and how a former game show host with an elevated understanding of
the media and entertainment was able to connect with others from all walks of life and stage a takeover of Washington D.C. — whether he meant to or not.

Michael D. McClellan sat down with former White House Director of Communications Anthony Scaramucci to discuss Fletcher’s timely documentary, The Accidental President, which will be released in November, 2020. What follows are candid insights from the man who was fired by Trump after 11 days on the job. Links to the socials appear below.

“The Accidental President” – Web and Socials
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You briefly served as the White House Director of Communications, so let’s start there. What was it that initially drew you to President Donald Trump? And what happened?

I’ll put it very simply to you, I was a lifelong Republican fundraiser. I interviewed Jeb Bush recently and I yelled at him. I said, “Goddamn it Jeb, if you would have only won the nomination I wouldn’t have gotten anywhere near the White House. So you have this non-traditional candidate who wins, and then he asks me to go work for him. And then [White House advisor] Steve Bannon and [Chief of Staff] Reince Priebus blocked my job. Then my stupidity kicked in because you had my ego involved. Once you put your ego into something, your intelligence is going down and your emotions are going up. So I took the job that the president offered. I got Steve Bannon out of the White House, which I’m convinced is my single greatest accomplishment in American history thus far [laughs]. But there I was, I was a lifelong moderate Republican and a Jeb Bush supporter. I didn’t want to break loyalty from the party, so I got sucked into the Trump orbit. He won, I took the job out of temptation and over-enthusiasm and ego. I made a mistake doing that. I’ve owned that mistake. And then after three years of objectively looking at his presidency, I said, “Okay, if we had voted him in as CEO of our publicly traded company, and we had this magnitude of nastiness that’s going on, we would vote to seek his removal.” In fact, our outside council would come running in and say, “You’ve gotta get rid of the guy.”

The Accidental President does a good job of pointing out that Hillary Clinton may have taken the Rust Belt for granted. Looking back on it now, what is your take?

As I’ve shared with James Fletcher when he was making this documentary, I was moved by the president’s campaign. Even after we’ve had his presidency, and after I’ve evaluated it as objectively as I can and saying that I don’t feel that he’s fit to serve as president, and that we should move on from him, during the campaign I was moved by him and how it was being run. I’m the product of a blue collar environment, and I went on 71 campaign stops with him. Say what you want, feel how you want, but I saw the energy and excitement around him.

Former White House Director of Communications Anthony Scaramucci
Photo: Jim Watson/AFP/Getty Images

The flipside is that Secretary Clinton had spent 30 years in Washington. Rightly or wrongly — and James points this out — she was arguably the most overexposed political candidate in our history. Therefore, people already had an opinion of her. Frankly it turned out to be a polarizing opinion of her, and so many people went out and voted against her more than anything else. And so you had that combination going. So I actually thought that then-candidate Trump had a chance of winning even though the polls were somewhat lopsided.

I’m actually mad at James, because he’s offered an objective, unbiased assessment of what was going on. Of course I wanted him to be biased and knock Trump around a little bit, but he’s a good guy and I think his decisions will serve this documentary very well, both internationally, and as an historic, academic treatment of what went on leading up to the 2016 election. It’s an accurate assessment, and it’s a clear-eyed study from both perspectives. What was great was that James was able to get a whole buffet table of people from different perspectives and ideological ranges, and he did a brilliant job editing it.


President Trump has taken politics and turned it into entertainment.

For a little bit of historical perspective here, I think than John F. Kennedy sort of magnetized the television market for politics. As Richard Nixon said, ruefully, “Oh my god, now we’re stuck with this box called a TV, and we’re going to have to deal with it now.” And then, obviously, President Reagan had a Hollywood element to him. Everything he did was always so well-staged. But I think Donald Trump brought politics into the smash-mouth era, where now you almost have a shock-jock as a political candidate. In some ways Howard Stern is not going to like this comparison, but Donald Trump is the Howard Stern of politicians. He’s out there smashing and breaking all of the totems, so I think that’s where we are now. He’s certainly extended the line of entertainment, and he continues to take it to the edge. Just when you think, “Okay, there’s no way he could go lower, or do something that is even more norm shattering,” he does it. His base loves that, actually. They are entertained because it’s an avatar of anger to the elites that they despise, and to the media that they despise. They feel left out of the system, and they feel disenfranchised, and Mr. Trump represents their avatar, if you will.


Do you think Donald Trump reflects our society today, or do you think he’s the instigator?

James is more objective than me, but I think that even in Mr. Trump leaves the stage this coming January, there is a systemic crisis in our country. And the leadership is such that it reflects a swath of the population. So, even if he departs, you still have to deal with the systemic dilemma that we have in this society, where so many people are angry and so many people feel left out.


At what point did you personally feel that you weren’t on the same page with President Trump?

The moment for me was when he went after “The Squad.” These were African-American, Hispanic, and Muslim American women, and he told them to go back to the country they originally came from. That is a racist, nativist trope. My grandmother produced three children, two served in the Second World War, and one of them was my mom. My Uncle Anthony, who I’m named after, got the Purple Heart from our country. He was on the beach at Normandy in 1944. These were American patriots. Should they have gone back to the country that they originally came from? They believed in and love the country more than anybody. So my grandmother was always sore about that. And even though I don’t agree from a policy perspective with those four women known as “The Squad,” they have a right to be here in the country. I would like to debate with them in the intellectual marketplace of ideas, but I don’t need them to go back to the country that they originally came from. So, I said, “That’s racist. That’s American nativism.” And as a result, I’ve disavowed my support. I can’t take any more.

Anthony Scaramucci and his wife, Deidre Ball
Photo Courtesy: “US Weekly”

Donald Trump is a master marketer. How can a rich New Yorker connect with so many of the blue collar voters who make up his base?

I don’t want to demonize Mr. Trump. He’s got great communication skills. James does a great job of pointing out how gravitating that sort of smash-mouth talking is to people. But here’s what I would say: He’s using idioms, and you can feel from his ethos that he feels left out. You can feel that he doesn’t have a chip on his shoulder, he has a wedge removed from his shoulder. Therefore, when he’s speaking, a lot of people who feel that way about themselves or their families can identify with it. So, there’s irony to that. He may be a billionaire living on Fifth Avenue in Trump Tower, but he feels left out. So, there is a pathos and an ethos to that, that people who feel the way that he does can identify with.


Last Question: Any regrets when it comes to being fired by Donald Trump?

None whatsoever. If I wasn’t blown from the White House like that, people wouldn’t even know who I am [laughs].